‘Ori and the Will of the Wisps’ Composer Gareth Coker Dives Deep on the Philosophy of Sound, Technique, and Snoring Bunnies

I’m not gonna waste anybody’s time with a flashy intro. Gareth Coker took an hour out of his day to give me some very insightful answers to questions that I hope seem different from the run-of-the-mill “journalistic” ones that usually pop up in interviews such as these. I wanted it to be fun and I wanted it to be interesting. What I didn’t expect was the sheer depth of Mr. Coker’s responses and how affluent his wisdom would be in opposition to my silliness. If you have any interest in the Ori series or music composition in general, you’ll very much want to hear what this supremely talented individual has to say. Please Enjoy.

GH: You've made a lot of people cry both sad and happy tears with your work in the Ori series. Which tears are your favourite to illicit and why?

Coker: Aw man, that's a good question. When I'm dealing with emotional scenes in a game like Ori, you're not- at least I'm not actively setting out to make you feel sad tears or happy tears or whatever-you-wanna-call-them tears. It's, and this might sound a bit deep and philosophical, but it is actually what I'm thinking about: it's more I want the music to help you connect with whatever it is you are feeling when you're watching the scene. And the comparison I like to make is the flying scene from E.T. (Extra Terrestrial). Basically the whole movie builds to the end point where the bike takes off into the air and E.T. is basically flying the bike for the kid, and the music, for some people the music will feel happy and joyous, and you might feel happy tears, but for some it might feel like sadness. It depends on how you relate to the character, and that's kind of what I'm getting at with Ori.

How you relate to the character will ultimately dictate how you feel. So if I take the opening of Ori and the Will of the Wisps which, funnily enough, also has a flying scene at the end, the whole of the opening is built to the moment that Ori and Ku take off. Ku has a broken wing when she's born, she can't fly, and the whole prologue is basically her yearning to fly, and the moment when she takes off, I think for a lot of people that's going to be a very happy moment, but for anyone who might have had an experience of someone who has had a disability and hasn't been able to do something, it might bring tears of sadness. But it might not be sadness, it's like a mixture between happy and sad because it's an example of people working together.

In this case, Gumo and Ori work together to fix Ku's wing and help her fly. And the music that designed- obviously we want to tell the player, "Yay, you're flying," but also it's 'What would Ku feel?' It's kind of like both a sense of relief and a sense of happiness, but I guess my overall point is that the music- sometimes it might feel like it's hitting you in the face with a certain type of emotion, but it's more- my goal is to help facilitate the player's emotional response. That's kind of what I'm going for. So if I've made you cry tears of happiness, then great. But in the same scene, if I've made you cry tears of sadness, then great. It's more- I really just want the music to help the player open up their heart to whatever it is they're feeling.

GH: Oh okay, so sort of like an extension of character.

Coker: Yes, exactly. You know, most of my music takes a point of view and that's kind of what I'm getting at. You know, sometimes the music might feel like, "Hey, this is obvious that it's telling me to be sad," but a lot of the music in Ori- I don't think it's quite as explicit. It's as much music to make you think about how you're feeling rather than tell you how you're feeling.

GH: And I think you hit both sides of that pretty well in both games. You strike a good balance between soft emotion and then something that could be regarded as hard hitting.

Coker: Well it's funny, cause I think there's a trend at the moment in- especially films and TV, but in media in general- where music shouldn't actually, you know, be too in your face when it comes to emotional content because it's too emotionally manipulative. And I'm like, "There's no such thing as too emotionally manipulative." That's kind of the point of the medium. I think that's one of the reasons why we watch certain things, like I think people actually want to experience that. It just has to be done well. And you know, I read a review recently of Ori that said like, "Oh, the music is pretty on the nose," and I'm like, "Well what were you expecting?" I mean, you've seen the trailers and this game isn't exactly like- it's not exactly trying to be subtle. When you sign up to play this game, it's not like you're expecting a David Lynch-like masterpiece of subtlety. That's not what we're trying to do at all. You know, we do pile on in a few spots, and I think that's okay. I think people want that sometimes from their entertainment. I mean Pixar have made a living off doing this for decades, now. There's so many scenes in Pixar movies where you can almost- it's so telegraphed, what's going to happen, but because they execute it so well, you just don't care. And yeah, I hope- I think the people who get the most out of playing a game like Ori are the people who are willing to suspend belief and just let yourself go in this world.

GH: And it's very easy to with that (Ori) as well. It's uh, and I don't say this in a bad way- it's a very saturated world. It's very easy to look at that and just be like "Aw," like a fly going straight to the flame. It's very alluring. (I then proceed to stumble into the next question with the grace of a flaming gazelle).

Although Will of the Wisps is still a side-scroller, I don't think I've ever played a game like this that felt so three-dimensional. Blind Forest had its moments, but this one expands on that immensely. Did you find the increase in scale to give you more breathing room, or did it present certain challenges that most of us wouldn't know about?

Coker: I mean, the look of the game- it is definitely a development of what we had in Blind Forest. It's definitely got more depth, but the increase in depth didn't really affect anything and how I approached the music. Honestly, the scope is the main thing that kind of affects what I do. There's just more environments. But I think the bigger difference is that there are more characters in this game, and you spend more time with those characters. In Blind Forest, you're pretty much Ori, and after the prologue that's pretty much it. You meet Gumo for a short segment of gameplay and Kuro pops up in a couple of spots, but generally speaking you're with Ori almost all the time, whereas in this game you spend the entire prologue with Ku.

Ku pops up later in the game, you've got Kwolok the Toad, who's a pretty significant character. You've got Shriek, the main antagonist who pops up all over the game. You've got Mora, the spider. And then you've got a bunch of other NPCs as well. But yes, the point is that having more characters allowed me to utilise- well first of all, create more themes, and then utilise them in different spots. Because Shriek pops up in different environments, I can use Shriek's theme in different environments. Because Kwolok pops up in different environments, I can use Kwolok's theme in different environments. And Kwolok's character arc takes a turn for the darker side of things, and I can completely turn his melody on its head, pretty much, and have a bit of fun with it later on in the game. And yeah, it made me less reliant on Ori's theme, which actually meant that when I did use Ori's theme, it had more power than it did in the first game because I was using it less. So yeah, actually, the scope of the game- obviously it's more work, but even though it's more work it actually kinda fleshed things out automatically for me because I had more themes to work with, so I actually felt less limited this time around.

GH: And what's the general process for outlining the sound to a place or character? Are you given a demo to play and explore, or do you just go by concept images and photos?

Coker: In the case of Ori, I play the game from a pretty early stage of development. I'm part of the team on a ground floor level, so what that means is I get a good idea of how the levels have been built and how the game flows and feels. And then the art comes in, and that dictates what instruments I'm going to use. I generally associate different instruments and different sounds with different colours, so getting the artwork in really helps me make the instrument choices. And then the characters and story are kind of built all around that. There isn't really an order, it's just whichever one area or character is closest to completion, then I'll start really looking into that.

If I take Kwolok the Toad, for example, I always knew, as soon as I saw his concept- and Kwolok was one of the first characters that we had finished pretty early on, cause it was in the first trailer, and I was like, "Okay, I really want a low instrument to represent Kwolok," and I chose the bass clarinet, which is not a commonly used instrument for solos at all. But you hear the bass clarinet in the track 'Kwolok's Hollow' in the soundtrack. That's when his theme is first presented in full. I was like, "Man, this is really unique." And the bass clarinet has a really really deep tone, which is great for a character with a really deep voice. And the thing is, Kwolok is also a guardian spirit, and the bass clarinet has a warmth to its tone that also makes you feel safe. And I was like, "Man, if I get this right it's gonna be a really unique sound that'll stand out," because there'll be no other place in the entire soundtrack that has a bass clarinet solo. And that's just an example of one choice.

And of course, by putting the melody in the bass- that meant, in a later track, I was like, "Well okay, I've had the melody in the bass. Now I want to put it higher up." It's like, immediately you've got a variation of the theme because we're not putting it in a bass instrument, anymore. We're putting it in a higher instrument because there's a dangerous situation with Kwolok…which I'm not going to spoil. But like, there's a dangerous situation with Kwolok that allowed me to put that same melody way higher up in the orchestral instruments, and even though it sounds quite different, hopefully most players made some kind of distant connection between the original 'Kwolok's Hollow' theme and then that final version in the boss fight. It was kind of cool to be able to develop a theme over what is basically two acts, because you meet Kwolok quite early on in the game, but his arc doesn't finish- well, it depends on when you go to the Lunar Pools, basically. It depends on what order you want to do things. It's quite a well spread out character arc. But yeah, that's just one example.

It's really just- there isn't really any set process to it, but the one thing that does help me is that I play the game from a really early stage, and I'm playing it as often as possible to get a feel for the overall flow of things. One thing that has pleased me very much is that a lot of people have commented on how well the music is implemented into the game, and that's really just a result of me play testing like crazy, though I still hear bugs. There's still things that I can improve, but apparently not (laughs), so if people are happy enough with the implementation then that's promising, because I feel that there's one more level I could go, but we just ran out of time.

GH: I've got a brother who does sound design and is a producer as well. He could be working on one song for a long time, and then when it's finished it's never truly finished for him. To anybody else it sounds perfect, but to him those issues are glaring.

Coker: The more experience you get, the easier it gets to let the babies go.

GH: Being from Ireland, I can't ignore the obvious Celtic undertones throughout the themes of the first few areas, but I noticed it gets a bit different in some of the darker/sandier areas. What were some other cultural inspirations you drew from for Will of the Wisps, if any at all?

Coker: Most of my cultural inspirations come from a process of osmosis. I travel a lot. I lived in Japan for three years of my life when I was much younger, and I listened to a lot of world music. I couldn't even tell you what it is because I usually just end up going onto Spotify and just randomly searching for stuff and then using the related tracks, much like the related videos on Youtube, and just kinda see how deep the rabbit hole takes me. But that's usually as effective a way of researching stuff as any, because the Spotify algorithm is actually very powerful, and you can end up finding related music that is very interesting.

I would say, for the desert area, obviously there's plenty of Middle-Eastern Arabian influences in the music. Most of the woodwind- I mean the woodwind is from all over the place. I'd have to ask the player exactly what the instruments are, because I can't even remember all of them. But you're right to pick up on the Celtic influences because there's a lot of penny whistle, tin whistle, especially earlier on in the game. But there's also a lot of recorder, and I hate the recorder. Well…at least I thought I did. And then in the Lunar Pools, my wind player Kristin (Naigus)- she had a beautiful recorder playing. It doesn't even sound like a recorder. I think she's lying to me (laughs). It sounds like- it's just such a beautiful way that she's played it. She's made it not sound like a recorder. There's this little lick in the Lunar Pools that's about a third of the way through the track, and it just sounds really beautiful.

I think the one thing I would say about Ori's music is I never want it to obviously be referencing another culture in particular, so it's kind of like a mish-mash of a lot of things to help make it feel unique, rather than like, "This is clearly the Asian area!" or "This is clearly the Celtic area!" My hope is that while you might hear an instrument or two from a certain area, it never sounds too- it has to be ethnically ambiguous. That's a good phrase. That's kind of what I'm looking for. Much like the game. The game is deliberately trying to be universal in its tone, so that's why we don't have language. That's why we went for this universal, made-up language. The game is definitely trying to be ambiguous when it comes to anything cultural.

GH: If you don't mind me saying, your music has moments that bring me right back to Russell Shaw's Fable II because of its sweeping whimsicality. I don't think Playground Games could do any better than yourself for the fourth game's soundtrack. Just sayin'. Like…if they're unsure about who to get, I've got a guy. Mr. Coker's right here.

Coker: (laughs) Thank you.

GH: Having said that, is there anything you’re dying to get your hands on to score that hasn’t been turned into a video game, movie, or TV show yet, like maybe a novel or a comic book? Any other source material that hasn’t been brought to the public’s attention in a big way that you think you might have fun with if it were adapted.

Coker: That's a tough one, cause I feel like everything I like already has been turned into a film or video game. Yeah, I might not be able to give you a good answer on that because I feel like everything I consume already exists. You know- this is gonna sound maybe weird. Have you ever heard of the book series by Brian Jacques, the Redwall book series? It's basically a kids book series, a fantasy series, but all of the characters are animals. You know, rats, moles, badgers, but they all live in a castle which is like a converted abbey. It feels like the kind of game that would work in a fantasy setting. Plus, cute furry creatures- that's got a lot of video game potential. I could see an RPG being made out of that, probably not dissimilar to Fable, actually. Though there are literally no humans in this series. It's all animals. And one thing I do remember is that the book series had some particularly compelling characters and a particularly compelling setting that would probably work well for an RPG.

I'm glad I found one that definitely hasn't been converted into a game, yet. It's just- if you type in 'The Redwall Series' into Google, you'll find a bunch of books. They're generally geared towards kids and young adults, but I can totally see it being made into a pretty grand RPG, probably in the same style of Fable or Kingdoms of Amalur. That kind of vibe. So, a little bit more friendly and positive in terms of overall tone. I think that would be a book series- because there's a lot of them, as well. There's tons of books. There's tons of material to work with, so that's the one I can think of that hasn't been done, yet. Yeah, normally the question is, "What existing IP would you like to work on?" and I'm like, "Oh, okay, well that's fine," but you turned that on its head (laughs).

GH: Well I've always thought like, "Well…how are people supposed to answer that?" It's already been done. Are they (artists) supposed to be egotistical and say, "Yeah, you know, I'd like to do this thing that this other person busted their ass working on." Come on, now.

Coker: Yup. Right.

GH: This kinda ties into my next question a little bit. If you could collaborate on something with anyone else, living or otherwise, who would it be?

Coker: Does it have to be a composer, or can it just literally be anyone?

GH: Whoever you want. Anybody at all.

Coker: I would love to be in a studio with Jonny Greenwood of Radiohead, who also did the music for There Will Be Blood. I've been a fan of Radiohead for a long time. I think he's a genius, and even a day in a studio with him would probably be wild. So yeah, that would be my choice.

GH: That's an awesome choice. He's one of the most eclectic and strange composers I've ever heard in my life. He did The Master, as well.

Coker: Yup, he did The Master. He's done a couple of other things as well, but yeah, (in an intense whisper) he's really good.

GH: There are plenty of up and coming artists trying to find their niche in composing music for video games. Do you have any words of wisdom to impart for those that might feel they’re lacking an outlet to unleash their stuff in such a competitive market?

Coker: Yeah, I always feel like that's interesting to me, because I actually feel like- it is a competitive market, but there's actually more work being done than ever before in games, so I think there's more opportunities than ever before. There's also more ways to get your music out there than ever before. I guess the one thing I would say, and it's very very common with people who are starting out, and I was like this, too, is- finish your work. Most people sit on things for way too long and life is too short. If you want to get hired and get recognised, you have to finish stuff. I live in L.A., and nothing drives me more bananas than people who say, "Aw, I'm working on this blah blah blah." And I'm like, "But what have you done?" Like, if you can show something that you've actually finished, it immediately says, "Hey, you've committed to something." And two, it proves that you're able to ship something and finish it, which requires a certain level of discipline, and it's just more attractive to people who are potentially doing hiring to hear things that are actually finished, because then they're a tangible product. When it's not finished, it's not tangible.

It doesn't matter- it could be the greatest thing - I could say I'm working on an album right now that's gonna be the greatest thing ever, and that it's gonna be the best selling thing of all time, but no one will care because it doesn't exist, yet. (laughs) So…it's not the sexiest answer, but actually finishing your work is literally the best thing you can possibly do and just get it out there. There's so many places and ways for you to get your music out there, and also for it to generate money, because most people obviously are concerned about that, too. Not all your music needs to be a best seller. There's so many websites where you can sell your music royalty free. And yeah, it might not sound like much, but if you have- let's say you have a hundred tracks that are generating a small amount of dollars per month, well that adds up. All of a sudden that starts paying your bills, and then when you have your bills paid for with royalty free music, then you can eventually focus on writing music without having to worry about bills and then you're in a really happy spot.

So it's just like, the more work you do, the more chances you have of earning money, which gives you a greater chance of actually being able to focus on writing music without worrying about how you're gonna pay the bills, because that is usually the greatest battle for creatives: getting over the hump of, "How am I gonna get through next month's rent?" The biggest battle is getting over that financial hurdle. Once you remove the financial pressure, your brain completely opens up. It happens to so many people. But, unfortunately, it takes a ton of work to get to that point, which is why I just say, "Finish. Your. Work." because, not only is it attractive to other people, but it also allows you to self-evaluate and learn from whatever mistake you made in finishing that track. You can't evaluate something until it's actually finished.

Of course, then you have to get into the discipline of, "What does finishing actually mean?" instead of, you know- stop tweaking your tracks! We talked about this earlier. Just get it done. But yeah, I used to be the same, being hesitant about putting stuff online and finishing it, but life's too short. And the thing is, you only need ONE person, and this is exactly what happened to me- I got found online by the director of Ori on a random website and he liked one track. One track that I posted out there, which was literally a track for a student film. And that eventually turned into me getting the Ori gig. And me getting the Ori gig obviously turned into me getting the Ori 2 gig, and also, because it hooked me up with Microsoft, it also led to me indirectly working on Minecraft, as well. And that all came from working on just one track on a website, so you just never know who's listening. But if I hadn't put it up there, you can guarantee that no one would've been listening. That's the only thing. So yeah, I guess that's my advice.

GH: Perfect. Probably the hardest and sagest of all advice for artists struggling with creative blocks. So…I think this is a very interesting thing to ask musicians in general, but what's your favourite sound of all time, not restricted to music?

Coker: Hmm. That's a good question. Let me think about that for a second. It'll probably be some kind of animal sound. Right now…(laughs) this is gonna sound so stupid. Um…so I have two rabbits, and the sound they make when they snore, I find incredibly relaxing.

GH: Oh my god. I don't think I've ever heard a rabbit snoring, before.

Coker: They don't snore very loud, but it does- it's just a very cute sound. That's the answer I can think of right now.

GH: I don't think I can get a better answer than snoring bunnies (laughs).

Coker: There you go (laughs).

GH: If a third Ori ever makes its way to us, is there any particular place you'd like to see it go, maybe in relation to story or a musical outlet with a desired location?

Coker: I think uh…whatever the third Ori game might be- I don't know when that would happen, but I would- like, we've got so many cool characters. I'll just take an example from the first game: I would love for a game to explore the history of the Gumon tribe and how they came to be, because they're a pretty technologically advanced race. So there's kind of a backstory there. You could also have a backstory with the Moki from the second game. So yeah, there's a couple of side characters that I think would be interesting to explore. I think playing as Gumo would be pretty wild because he's such an awkward character, and I think people would quite enjoy Gumo as well. I think it really would just depend on the character. I don't really have a preference. I've already gotten to do two games in the Ori world, and there's still so many other places where it could go. So yeah, we'll just have to wait and see.

GH: Perfect. So, my last and final question, and then I'll let you get back to your Doom sessions: What's your favourite track from Will of the Wisps and why?

Coker: Oh, wow. Uh…

GH: Just out of the, what, fifty-four tracks? (laughs)

Coker: Sixty! Um…I can pick a couple. So one that frequently comes up for me is 'Ash and Bone', which plays towards the end of Act 1. It's when Ori and Ku are together in the Silent Woodlands and they're being stalked by Shriek. That was a fun one to write because it combines Ori's theme on piano, Ku's theme on high strings, and Shriek's theme on low strings, and they all kind of play off each other. But, and this might seem like a cop out, but I think my favourite track really is the last one on the soundtrack because it is the one that brings everything together and ties up the whole thing. And it is especially powerful for anyone that played the first game, because it does reference the first game's themes quite heavily as well. It's funny, the ending track- you know, I was dreading writing the ending, but when I saw the visuals I was like, "Oh wow. I kind of know exactly what I'm gonna do," and it was actually one of the easier tracks to write. And what you hear on the soundtrack and in the game is basically version one.

GH: Wow.

Coker: Yup. It was just one of those- I kind of knew what to do, and I knew that the team would like it. I just had a good instinct for it. But yeah, I'm particularly- and this was a good final question- I'm particularly proud of the ending of the game. We know that it probably wasn't what everyone expected. I can say that. But it kind of drives home that the studio made the game it wanted to make. We didn't like- we took some risks with that ending, and I think we took some risks overall. We did pay attention to feedback from the first game, but overall we took some risks, and I took some risks with the soundtrack for the second game, too.

But I think if you look at this game, Will of the Wisps, without any preconceptions or early biases and look at it for what it is, I think it's hands down a better game than the first. But it is different. So I imagine there are some people who went into this game, and it probably wasn't quite what they expected, cause the tone's a bit darker- overall, it's a bit heavier. Ori grew up. And I would say the studio grew up. And I would also say I grew up as a composer. And I think that is what this game represents, and I am proud that we all stuck to our guns on this, and it culminated with that ending, which I'm super proud of. So yeah, it is the ending track.

GH: I definitely saw people giving out about the ending, but even though you weren't setting out to make a dark game, I think having darker moments makes the lighter ones more prevalent.

Coker: Well you just cannot please everyone, cause people will have their own preconceived ideas as to what the game is going to be, and, you know, we didn't try to make an ending that makes everyone happy. And without giving too much away, you know, life sucks. Sometimes you just don't get what you actually want, and you have to deal with it. I've seen- and I think we probably are referring to the same thread on Steam or- there's a couple of threads on the ending, but I would rather people be discussing the ending rather than not, because at least it means that people still care. Because if we've written a cop out ending, I think people would be even more upset. So I understand why people feel the way they do, but not everything in life is easy, and I think that was part of the overall message that we were trying to make with the game.

If you haven’t had the chance to play either of the Ori games, I would highly recommend them. It’s a title that creates gamers. Or, if you’d rather just enjoy Gareth Coker’s music by itself, give his stuff a listen on Spotify or any other platform you prefer. His compositions are masterful, and he’ll undoubtedly be a name that sits up there with the likes of Soule (Skyrim, KOTOR) and O’Donnell & Salvatori (Halo), which is presumably why he’s currently hard at work on Halo: Infinite. I’m very excited to see what someone of his caliber does with that property.